Take a pass on plastic
Podcast transcription - 13th November
Alan Cowley: Hi, my name is Alan Cowley and I am your regular Invested Investor host. This podcast, I'm thrilled to be sat opposite Kath Austin, the architect behind BeeBee Wraps. Kath founded BeeBee Wraps in 2017 and has built a growing start-up which creates reasonable and natural food wraps that replace clingfilm and plastic. And we will hear a lot more about this, later on in the podcast.
So, although entrepreneurship is relatively new to you, you have been awarded several awards including the SME Entrepreneur of the Year of the 2018 SME National Awards, which is seriously impressive.
Kath Austin: Thank you.
Alan Cowley: So, before we go on to BeeBee Wraps and understand the causes behind that and why you started a company. Let's just hear about a little bit about your background and life before venturing into the start-up world.
Kath Austin: Sure. Well, thank you for having me. So yeah, my background is in fundraising for the third sector. I was a bit of an, every job sort of person. I kind of did a lot of things before I hit on really what resonated with me. What really resonated was a cause, something that did good, something that gave me fulfilment in my job.
And I found that after doing volunteer work in the events sector and then moving into fundraising for the charity world. I was very happy there, I spent 11 or 12 years working for different charities and I wanted to stay. I found a home at Arthur Rank Hospice Charity, where it's like a big family and everybody loved working towards this one cause.
But at the same time, I was doing lots of kind of home projects. I've always got something going on which yeah, it's just curiosity, I guess. And I started making sourdough bread, a little bit random, but at the same time I'd have my first daughter. And I realised that there was an awful lot more waste coming into the house in the form of packaging and just how you go through things so quickly when you have children because they grow up quickly or they have special food or whatever.
And so, these two things converged. I've gone too far haven't I, off the question.
Alan Cowley: No, of course not. Course not.
Kath Austin: So, the two things converged, making sourdough bread and being very concerned about all this waste. And I realised that when you make sourdough bread, it doesn't come with packaging. And the fact that I was making packaging was avoiding the waste. And I thought, "Well there's got to be something to solve this problem that's left behind."
I didn't want to use plastic bags obviously. So, I looked back at what we did before we had plastic, which is only a hundred years old and people use all sorts of things. So, sometimes people just put them inside fabric, but other people were waxing cotton. And still to this day, some bread manufacturers wax paper, but it's not a biodegradable, compostable wax.
So, I looked into ways, I could make this in my own home. And I discovered that across the world is kind of a cottage, artisanal industry of making wax cotton to preserve food. This is a great idea and I started doing it at home, completely caked the house in molten wax. And then, yeah, so it took off from there.
People loved it. David, my partner got fed up of it and said, "Will you just do something with it and test the market." And that's kind of when it happened.
Alan Cowley: All right. So before we go on to testing the market, how do you actually make this product and can you describe, listeners can go to BeeBee Wraps and we'll put it in the show notes, but can you just describe what it is and how you actually make it without giving too many secrets away, obviously.
Kath Austin: Yeah, sure. I'm not going to give you any secrets. So, a BeeBee wrap is essentially a piece of organic cotton that's been infused with a formula of beeswax, resin, and jojoba oil. And those last two ingredients help beeswax be more pliable and grippy, but it's mainly beeswax. And so, once it's infused in the cotton that holds it, you can use the heat of your hands to shape it around food just like you would cling film. And it shapes around bowls and all sorts of other containers.
So, it completely replaces the need for any plastic covering or foil. And it keeps food fresh as well because unlike plastic, which is a hermetically sealed, this has tiny microscopic holes left in it and so that it can breathe without becoming stale.
Alan Cowley: Oh, okay. So, the moulding, so once it's moulded over, say a bowl to keep some food for a few days, what do you do with it afterwards? Do you throw it away? Do you-
Kath Austin: No. That's one of the best things about it is that you don't need to throw it away, you can wash it. So, you wash it in cold, soapy water, let it drip dry, and then you can reuse it over and over. And it will last around a year. And the more you wash it, the more you use it, the more the beeswax wears away. It won't just stop working, but it will eventually come to the end of its life. And that at that point we recommend that you repurpose the BeeBee Wrap as a firelighter.
Alan Cowley: Oh, okay.
Kath Austin: So, just cut it up into little strips, twist it, and then use it to start your barbecue or wood-burning stove.
Alan Cowley: So, once it's over the bowl, does it stretch or does it ... like once you clean it kind of-
Kath Austin: No, it doesn't stretch. The beeswax, because it has a low melting point it momentarily softens. That helps it grip against the bowl or against itself, if you're say wrapping a sandwich or cheese. Yeah. And then it sticks and makes this breathable seal.
Alan Cowley: Oh, brilliant. Brilliant. Okay. So, you've created it here at home.
Kath Austin: Yep.
Alan Cowley: What happened next and obviously the influence here a bit is your husband that pushed you towards it. But yeah, so what happened next? Talk us through the process and how we're here today.
Kath Austin: Okay. So, he obviously, is very understanding of all my crazy projects, which is a great thing. But this one did go on for a while and he said, "I don't know what you're going to do with this. If it's just for us great, can you just scale it down a bit? But if it's not, then fail fast." And that's become a real mantra for us at BeeBee Wraps is that, it's no point just keep kind of flogging a dead horse, just fail fast and then get onto the next thing.
So, he said, "Look, just put it on the internet and see if it does something." And so, I thought the best platform for it to go on was Etsy, which is like the eBay for homemade goods. I put it on Etsy and I kind of forgot about it and the next day David said, "Have you had any orders?" No, I haven't even checked. So, I went and I checked, and I had two orders from complete strangers, not my mom.
I thought, well there's obviously a demand if within 12 hours I've had two people order from someone they have no trust in, they have no reason to order from me other than the fact they want what I'm doing. And my friend who's a bit of an Etsy stalwart, she said, "That's really, really strange. That it takes quite a while to get going on it." So, immediately there was all this evidence to say there's a market out there for this product.
And later that year David Attenborough launched Blue Planet and started bringing to the forefront the problem with plastic pollution. And so, it was the right timing as well.
So yeah, the Etsy ordered started going up. I was making them in the evenings after I finished work and the kids were in bed. And I was making them in my kitchen, very long process of making each wrap. We've managed to scale up production now, but back then it was literally painting every single wrap. We'd lay on a heated sheet and we'd paint molten beeswax onto the sheets one after the other and then hang them on a washing line.
Alan Cowley: Wow.
Kath Austin: It was a crazy way to do it, but we need to start somewhere. And it really is, roll your sleeves up, and get on with it. So, then I discovered a way to be able to ... well, someone introduced me to Cambridge Social Ventures. It was Estelle Levin of Levin Sources. We were stood at a bouncy castle watching our kids bounce up and down and I was telling her what I was doing. And next thing you know, she said, you should go on this Social Ventures weekend, where they do a kind of three-day programme for people wanting to start social ventures a 101 of how to do it.
And I went, it was at the Judge Business School. I walked in completely overwhelmed by the building because it is a little daunting and I felt very, very inspired because the first person to get up and speak was Linda Bell and she said, "You're here because we believe that you've got something special to give and we want to get behind you and help you." So, it was a real kind of light bulb moment, "Oh, this is actually something I could do."
And then Linda encouraged me to apply for the Incubator Programme and I was lucky enough to get on it, which a lot of other people didn't. So, amazingly that these people had trust and belief in what I wanted to do. And next thing you know, I'm on holiday and in August and I'm about to start the programme. And I only work part-time anyway, which I don't anymore, and I had to make that decision.
Do I give up my job and give everything to this or try to juggle fundraising and BeeBee Wraps and motherhood and every other part of my life. It's impossible. So, we were driving back from our holiday talking about it, kids asleep in the back, stuck on the M25 and David said, "It's a bit of a no brainer, isn't it? You don't earn that much anyway."
So, he's always very appropriate if that makes sense. And he was right, he's right. And I was just held back by fear that this was such a nice comfortable place I'd found myself in and I was really, happy, but it doesn't mean that I should have ignored this opportunity. And it did just land in my lap. So, I decided to give up my job and I went to see my boss, Lynn Morgan, and Donna Talbert and basically cried on her. "Right. That's it. I've got to do it." And they understood entirely.
So, then I put everything into BeeBee Wraps, going to the Incubator Programme every month and then working on it diligently. So, until November when I said, "Well, I can't keep up, I've got to get somebody." And my first employee was called [BB 00:03:40], which is hilarious. So, BB came to work for BeeBee and she would come to the house every day. She would make the wraps and I would unpack them and I would get on with all that kind of business admin, which started to grow as the business grew. I was just making wraps, I didn't know about all this other stuff that goes on.
We didn't think we were going to have a very busy time in January after the Christmas rush, which it was a brilliant Christmas. But then for some reason, The Guardian picked up on the fact we were doing this and they ran an article on plastic alternatives and they used a picture that I'd taken on my phone of my wraps and they put it on their headline and then referred to us. And I think we took 400 orders in three days.
Alan Cowley: All to make in your kitchen.
Kath Austin: Yep. So, at that point, I said, "BB, you've got to come back and help me. Because she only came for the Christmas rush. I called in friends and family to come and help. David really got involved at that point, didn't ever really leave. But it was such a fun time. Fun, crazy, chaotic. But what that did was gave us cash injection. Because when you sell direct, you get the money up front, which is fab.
And so, the Cambridge social ventures guys, I mean they just thought it was amazing and they'd asked me to set three objectives for the year that I was on the Incubator Programme. And the first one was to move out of the kitchen and into proper commercial premises. And
... and cash injection really gave us the ability to do that. The second one was to try to source our own fabric because we were using somebody else's and it's not branded, but it's not our own. And, of course, we can put our brand on it very easily. And the third thing we had to do was find a better way to make them, because we could never scale, it would just be a linear scale to do it the way we were doing it. But to grow exponentially and really scale up properly, we'd have to find a different way to make them.
So yeah, that was the next thing that happened. I had no idea who to approach. Who do you approach when you want to build a machine to make beeswax wraps. And I asked a lot of different people, it was through a contact. Cambridge Consultants popped up and said, "We'll help you." So that was really, nice. We worked together on a project to create Birtha’s machine, affectionately known as Birtha, for shorthand, from the 80s. That's exactly it.
Alan Cowley: Brilliant. So, the incubator, how long were you on the programme for?
Kath Austin: On the programme for a year.
Alan Cowley: For a year? So, let's just talk about a little bit about that. Obviously, they sent you some targets and some objectives. What else did you get from that? Like for budding entrepreneurs that are listening to this, what would be the reasons to go into an incubator?
Kath Austin: There's two massive reasons. The first one, personally is confidence, And the mentorship really helped me to believe that this was a good idea because you can sit there and think you've got a great idea, and you see it all the time with people and you think, God, that's such a stupid idea. Don't waste your time. But unless you have perspective, how are you meant to really know?
So, if you have a mentor who has got a lot of experience and says "No, you're onto something, you've got traction." That was a brand, new word to me. That's valuable to me to be able to have someone objective saying, "No, keep going. This is the right thing to do."
And the second thing is the kind of practical side of running a business and learning is another 101 of how to run a business. Learning what a cashflow is, learning what PNLT is, all these things. I wouldn't be able to give you a 101 on a PNL, but I've certainly got an awareness of it now and I understand much better why it's so important to know where your cash is and all sorts of other things. So that was crucial.
Alan Cowley: Did they do training on the incubator?
Kath Austin: Yeah, so they do, I think it's two or three days a month, they might have changed it now, for the first six months and they have lots of different experts come in and talk about all sorts of aspects. So, it might be your social media, it might be the finance, it could be resilience as an entrepreneur, which is so important now, especially when you reach two, year mark and you really start to feel the grind. But yeah, they cover an awful lot of subjects. And then you can ask for specific things if you need to know more about something.
Alan Cowley: Yeah. Okay. You've been running the company now for two and a half years and you've been through the incubator and we're now in a nice office. Is it nicer?
Kath Austin: As of a month ago, it's a nice office.
Alan Cowley: So, you moved into that. Let's talk about some of the biggest challenges you've faced along the way, and then it'd be good to hear a bit more about the market. So, what do you think have been those big issues and those big things that you've had to overcome?
Kath Austin: I think that personally it was this idea that I wasn't a business person, and that I didn't know what to do. So, the phrase that was always come back to me is, I'm feeling my way in the dark. But the realisation that a lot of people are doing that is valuable. And being able to trust my instincts was a good lesson to learn. But I'm still at the point where I'm absorbing all these lessons and trying to dodge the kind of classic mistakes people make when they grow a business that first year of being in business. Yeah, first 18 months, I look back now and think, Oh, gosh, why did I do that? Silly mistakes that you make, like spending too much money on one thing and not another. But looking back now I think, well I would probably won't do that again, but who knows what I'll do this year though, next year I'll look back and go... So, on a personal level, this is such a steep learning curve for me, but I am just absorbing all like a sponge.
But from the business perspective, it's a new market. We're curving out this brand, new market that is just at the beginning of the curve, I hope it is, anyway, I think it is. And so, we're discovering new ways to talk to our customers, we're discovering our new customers and we're trying to scale quick enough to respond to this huge demand for an alternative. Plastic has been kind of vilified, it's got its uses, but certainly not in a single use capacity in most cases. And no one seems to have... Everyone's screaming out for an alternative. We've got one and we're just trying to scale enough to meet that demand. And one of the real challenges for us is that we've never been ahead. We've always been responding and never got to that point where we go, "Oh, we've got stock on the shelf." It's just happened. We just can't make them fast enough.
Alan Cowley: It's a good thing to happen.
Kath Austin: I know it's better to be that way round. And we did have a quiet period and it was such a shock to get stuff in retail and that's essentially where manufacturing and retail, so with that SAS. January and February are a bit of a shock to suddenly see it dip so low again. And we did catch up a bit, but then it just ramped up. So, we're planning for next January and February and to see how that goes. But yeah, we've always struggled to just keep ahead and to not let people down by not responding quick enough just because it's so big, at the moment.
Alan Cowley: Okay. So, let's talk about the market a little bit more. So you're saying this is a new market and I'm presuming there's other players that are coming into it as well because of the exposure it's having and hopefully, hopefully we get more and more, not just yourselves because it's something that needs to happen and it might be healthy competition for yourself. What is that competition look like and where do you think the market is kind of heading?
Kath Austin: So, as we walked into this market and started scaling bee-bee wraps, we realised there was competition. Most of it was from overseas, which is good because the market that we set in is concerned with reducing the impact on the earth. So, if you want to ship something in from another country, you've really got to think long and hard about that.
So, our main competitors are in America and Canada, a few in Australia. And of course, because the way things are in the UK and how everyone's eyes have been opened to plastic, there are a few other people in the UK doing it. And I would say, two years ago that was the case. Now there are lots and lots of people doing it, but they're two years behind us. And making that decision to go big or go home, a lot of people say, "Well, I'll just stay in my kitchen and see how it goes, and it's a nice little kind of little business for me." But I'd never wanted to do that. I always wanted to go big, and the reason why is because what is the point of only reaching 500 people when you could reach 5 million people? Well, just by trying to scale the business more you scale exponentially. So, you reach more people just by scaling, so many times over.
So, we have competition, our market is growing, but we know that we're... I guess people refer to us as market leaders in this country anyway, because we started earlier.
One of the other reasons why I think that we do have a bit of an edge is because we've positioned ourselves very differently to our competitors in the UK. There are few other companies, but they all market themselves as an Eco product, and I don't, ever want, to be seen as that traditional kind of beigey, maybe boring, UK product. I want our product to stand alongside other standard things that you buy in any other shop, and not look so different that people go, "Oh, I don't know about that. I think you have to be an Eco Warrior to buy that," because otherwise, how are we ever going to talk?
So, the mass, however, going to cross the chasm and speak to everybody else, how are we going to persuade them that's what they need if they're not sure that eco is what they want? They just want something that they feel an affinity with. All our customers are mostly women. They like things that look good, that make them feel good. This is what we're responding to. I know that because I think I am my customer. So we make bee-bee wraps that are really cool, really pretty and less eco.
Alan Cowley: Okay. So how do you reach everyone else then?
Kath Austin: We've thought long and hard about how, do we reach everybody else. For me, I think that still even in a world where women go to work and women are considered equal to men and they're not kind of stuck in their home so much anymore, not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's less of a distinction now. They still do guide the use of bee-bee wraps. They still very much have the decision making for us. And so, our products are meant to replace single use plastic in the kitchen, at the moment.
We have another product coming out soon, which we've outsourced the manufacturing for, and that replaces plastic sponges because it's just this absorbent, but it can be washed. And so you can reuse it, and it's compostable.
And so, we know that by still speaking to women who are our main customers, 90% of our customers are women, then we can start talking about other products. And what we hope, what I hope, that will do is strengthen the bee-bee brand as the brand to go to if you want an alternative that does just as good or if not better. And those women hopefully will talk to other women, the men.
Alan Cowley: What about your classic buy a roll of clingfilm for four pounds and that lasts me six months to a year.
Kath Austin: Yeah. I get asked that question quite a lot because clingfilm is cheaper if you look at it that way. It's, very cheap. But I always say, first of all, it costs the earth. It really does. You think about every single time you take that clingfilm out, you use it a few times and then you throw it away. Where does it go?
We may need to make, a decision just based on that. But then also if you really are kind of hung up on the economics of it, bee-bee wraps save food waste. So, you can wrap herbs or salad in Clingfilm or plastic bags, and they will eventually disintegrate into this kind of green sludge. If you put them in a bee-bee wrap, they last lots longer because it's breathable.
So, the greatest example we have is coriander, which is a naturally quite delicate herb. And you put it in plastic and it really stinks after a while. But in a bee-bee wrap, it stays fresh for two weeks, maybe like a week to two weeks. You've got much more chance of finishing that coriander before you waste it and need to throw it away because you've not got to it time.
And so, if you add up all the times, two pounds a bag of coriander, add up all the time you don't do that, there you are. That's your saving.
Alan Cowley: Okay. All right. So, we've had a chat about a bit of the future. Let's talk about fundraising and investment. Let's talk a little bit about what you've already had, but let's talk more about what you're looking for in the future and that process of going through that. So you've had some funding already, haven't you?
Kath Austin: Yes. Again, right from the beginning
To scale, I knew that we would need some capital, but I had just no idea really, where to go about it. This is where Cambridge Social Ventures was so helpful. They just gave all the options and all the pros and cons for each one. Because BeeBee Wraps has always been pretty good at making cash just because it sells stuff, it made sense to not go for equity investment straight away, it made sense to go for loan finance. Because Belinda was involved with Foundation East, she set it up, it was a logical thing to have a look at what they did. They had a social venture fund that she recommended us for. Bob Shimmon, who is one of the portfolio managers there, he came to do a session and he explained everything. It just made a lot more sense to be able to borrow the money and to see what we could do with it, without losing any control or any of the equity immediately.
We've had two rounds of investment from them and it's really, really helped us to be able to finance Bertha. Also, the buying power we have now is so much bigger. We did, in that first year, we did manage to source our own fabric. We did move out and we did install Bertha. We used to spend a couple of thousand on cotton, now we spend tens of thousands on cotton each time. And just to be able to do that, to have that capital, that's really helped us to bring our costs of goods sold down.
That's what we've had so far, and what we need next, I mean, when you arrived, I was looking at our plan for the next year. I call it my 2020 vision, and I am going to dine out on that forever. We're looking at how we'd like to change things over the next year to 18 months, and it's huge. This vision I've got is huge. I'm not sure I can do it in that time, but I know that we definitely need not only some investment, but also I probably need somebody who, an investor who can come along with some experience in that area and give us a hand in terms of where we go next and how we scale. Perhaps that manufacturing and just how we scale up from Bertha.
Alan Cowley: Yeah, okay. What concerns you about that, do you think?
Kath Austin: Yeah, I think I'm really concerned about making the right choice, because I think you only really get one stab at this, don't you?
Alan Cowley: Choosing the right investor?
Kath Austin: The right investor, yeah. I'm sure there are lots of opportunities to work with lots of different people, but one of... Yeah, we did consider going for, we have considered seed funding, and then you don't necessarily have that one person. That's a good thing in terms of your liabilities to that person, but then you don't get the expertise back. So, I'm necessarily, because seed investment perhaps is lots and lots and lots of people without necessarily... Have I got this wrong, then? You're looking at me confused.
Alan Cowley: A little bit, yeah. Do you mean seed investment as in crowdfunding?
Kath Austin: Yeah.
Alan Cowley: Yeah, no. Seed investment is, we'll chat about-
We'll chat about this afterwards, because there's crowd funding, which is a type of seed investment, but angel investment, you can still have seeds. You'll have multiple angels involved in that, so we don't tend to have, it does happen, it does sometimes happen, have one investor that will give you that expertise, but generally up will have a seed of investors, say angel investors if you go in that early, and one of them will be the lead investor who will probably sit on your board. That's how it generally works.
Kath Austin: Then that sounds great, let's do that.
Alan Cowley: Yeah, we'll talk about that a little bit more afterwards. But yeah, there's another thing you touched on there, crowd funding, and you talked about investors. You were on Dragons' Den, weren't you?
Kath Austin: I was.
Alan Cowley: Yeah, so you've experienced a dramatised version of this process.
Kath Austin: Yeah.
Alan Cowley: How did you find that experience? One, why did you do it? Two, how did you find it, and has Dragons' Den put you off this whole equity finance thing?
Kath Austin: No. So why we went on, the great thing about that was that it was being able to speak directly to 3 million odd people. I went on, I say we, it was only me, I went on because I knew that I needed to get this idea out to people, and it was great publicity. The whole experience, I probably wouldn't equate it to the same expected experience of dealing with an angel investor. I think they're completely different. This is an entertainment show, with real investors still, but they're there to make entertainment, and they did. They do a really good job of it. I didn't get to speak to the dragons until I walked in, and I didn't get to speak to the dragons afterwards when I walked out. I literally walked in, pitched, and I was grilled for a long time, for an hour and a quarter.
So the experience was pretty scary, but what I think it's given me is a lot of confidence that, well, if I can do that, having a conversation with a nice person, like an angel investor who's actually interested and wants to help and wants to be part of this venture, then it's taken away a lot of the fear for me. Because I think that's the ultimate fear, is going onto a TV show and putting yourself out there, and you know, there's a bit of humiliation involved as well. So, I'm looking forward to the opportunity to sit with a potential investor and talk it through.
Alan Cowley: Yeah. Well, no, that sounds like an optimum chance of, one, a mixture of publicity, and the daunting thing around business, to then go in front of five, or three business, people.
Kath Austin: It's five.
Alan Cowley: Five well known business, people and need to talk about that, that's a big tick on whatever happens, it doesn't really matter, at least you learned something from it, didn't you?
Kath Austin: Yeah, yeah, and they did they, they were merciless. They did ask lots of really difficult questions, many of which weren't in the final cut. But I've answered those questions under pressure, so yeah, feeling good. Feeling that I could do it.
Alan Cowley: So, an experience everyone should try to do?
Kath Austin: No, perhaps not. I think it's one of those ones that I'll always say, "Oh yeah, I did that," but perhaps wouldn't do it again. Just you know, out of choice.
Alan Cowley: So that's a serious experience of Dragons' Den in the past. But let's just talk about the future, and I know you touched on the 2020 vision, which I'm pretty sure is trademarked, but what is your 2020 vision and further on?
Kath Austin: Yeah, so the next year, we know that we're well regarded as being producers of beeswax wraps of, BeeBee Wraps. We've got some interesting discussions going on with some major retailers right now. I'm hoping that 2020 will be the year that those launch. Past that, I want the BeeBee brand to be more than just this one product. I would like for people to be able to trust that brand as a brand that brings forward alternatives that actually work, that look good, that don't cause too much of your investment, like it's easy to switch, it's not going to be painful to switch over to our brand. This is a good thing, and so I really want to work on increasing the value of the BeeBee brand by bringing out other products that do the same thing. They switch from single use plastic, that's unnecessary, over to something that's far more sustainable.
That's what really excites me, and part of that process as well is the kind of narrative that goes with that. So, I want people to use one of our products and say, "What else can I do?" And then really start that mobilising mindset, and that thought leadership. I know that's quite a kind of business term but dictating the agenda and what comes next, also encouraging other people who perhaps find themselves in my position, especially the younger generation. Having two daughters and really knowing where I come from and where I am now, I'd like to encourage people in the same position who are younger to be able to know that they can do this.
My daughter sat down at the dinner table about a year ago and said to my mom, "Did you have a business when mommy was a little girl?" And just knowing that is a comment made by then a six year old as she's watching everything and knowing that that happened means that there's so much more I can do to encourage the next generation to come through with far less limiting believe and a higher glass ceiling, if there is one.
Alan Cowley: So, there's a possibility that in 10 or 20 years, time she might take over.
Kath Austin: She very well might. Well, they'll have to fight it over between both of them, because I've got two.
Alan Cowley: Yeah. Well, we'll wait and we'll, see what happens there. Kath, it's been absolutely, fantastic to have to you on the show this week.
Kath Austin: Thank you.
Alan Cowley: It's great to hear that this cause led motivation is not just producing something in your kitchen. You know, you've taken that step, and all the best for the future.
Kath Austin: Thanks so much. Thank you.
Alan Cowley: Thanks very much.
Peter Cowley: Thanks for listening to another Invested Investor podcast. You can subscribe to all future podcasts via our website, investedinvestor.com or via a number, of online podcast platforms. Be sure to follow us on Twitter, LinkedIn and Facebook to get the most up to date interesting and insightful content.
