Entrepreneurialism is a universal language
Podcast transcription - 11th September
Alan Cowley: Welcome to another Invested Investor Podcast. I'm sat opposite Emma Sinclair, MBE. Emma founded carpark management firm Target Parking, health and wellbeing, private members club Wakeman Road, which she has since exited. And now co founds tech company, Enterprise Alumni, alongside becoming the youngest person in the world to take the company public. Emma was awarded an MBE in the Queen's 90th birthday honours for services to entrepreneurship in 2016.
You've got a varied industry background, very entrepreneurial focus. What did you want to do when you grew up?
Emma Sinclair: Well, we missed out the first half of my career, which was MNA. So, I did spend the first seven years slogging as a graduate in an investment bank. So, really I actually think there is a common thread and it’s just an interest in business. I had always wanted to be in business from a very young age, and I had a very unusually early love of stock markets and business, because my father drove me to school every day.
From the age of four to 18, I remember every morning we played times tables, and we played maths and what's the capital city, and how many yellow cars you can see? But he had a couple of hundred pounds in the utilities, when they privatised, and we played guess the share price. So, from a very young age, I was reading my father’s share prices from the Financial Times, and I entirely hold that accountable for absolutely everything that came next. So that was my early appreciation of business.
Alan Cowley: So, is he your biggest influence, then?
Emma Sinclair: We're all influenced in some way, shape or form by our formative years, and I'm still extremely close to my dad. But if I think about some of the ... flipping it around, some of the challenges, why don't people want to IPO? Why don't people want to build a business? Why don't? Maybe it's because they weren't exposed to it. There's an ivory tower around it. It seems terribly challenging.
But if you think about it, I basically spent my younger years opening the Financial Times, originally looking just at share prices, but then as I got older it'd be market cap. I'd read him the front page, the back page, the Lex column, which is still there. So really a kind of world of high finance mergers and acquisitions and all that sort of thing. Which is an utterly accessible thing that I did with my dad.
So, I think it probably removed it as a difficult, hard to reach goal, or a job I might not have because I associate those things with happiness and engaging with my family, which is a lovely thing.
Alan Cowley: So, it was a natural progression from MNA to becoming an entrepreneur?
Emma Sinclair: That kind of shortens the process significantly, and I'd love to say yes, I woke up and then I was a little girl and I read stock market share prices and I became an entrepreneur, and all went swimmingly. Over the years it just stayed something I was fascinated by.
I left school, went to university, took out my student loans, traded them on the stock market when trading on the stock market involved having to pick up the telephone to a bank, and waiting 10 days for a piece of paper to come. None of these online trading. I'm not even that old. And I think about how I traded.
So, I just always maintained an interest. Also, my father is in business and it was just something we always discussed. Because he always talked about what he was doing at work, or quite often after school I would go to my dad's office and, granted as a student I was gathering paperclips and seeing how many 1p's I could steal from his drawer or his pockets.
But office environment was just very normal for me. So, I just maintained that interest. And when it came to the end of my first year at university and everyone was going backpacking or going to work in a pub, I just thought to myself, well I should apply for a job in the city.
And that's what I did. So, I worked in finance related jobs from my first summer of my first university holiday. So, it's just always been something I've been interested in, because it's just what we did and then it became something I did and paid the bills.
Alan Cowley: Yeah, I feel quite closely to that. Having a father in start-up world, setting up as well. So, let's go into your first entrepreneurial journey.
Emma Sinclair: The journey has been many. There have been lots of things that I've done, and I think really if I aggregate them all, they've just all been learning experiences. They've been small things I've done whatever sector they were in, whether a passion project or a business project or a whatever else they were. They were all small.
And really the way that I think about them now, especially on days when everything is very challenging, and I'm not entirely sure of the answer to anything at all. I just look at them as all, of those experiences cumulatively, where there to get me to a point where I was then able to be ready enough to run a business that had mileage to go global.
And none of them were, they were all smaller. IPO was smaller, it was real estate related. My car parking company, smaller, Wakeman Road, which you mentioned, and it's been a while since I've thought about that was a passionate project. I hadn't been very well, there was a shortage of places for practitioners to practise that couldn't afford Harley Street, and together with some friends basically took a building, in a fleeting moment of madness and that was what that was.
But in everything else I did before, this was kind of small. And just taught me what to do, what not to do. Taught me how to negotiate, how not to negotiate. Taught me what not to do when you're taking investment, so that I knew this time around what to do. I kind of mushed together everything before Enterprise Alumni because it was just so many different things, and they didn't have scale, but they taught me a lot.
Alan Cowley: Obviously there's so much to running a company, but what are the things that stand out that you learnt?
Emma Sinclair: Saying no. Learning to negotiate. Knowing my value, knowing the value of what I believe in, that I'm building, on the one hand, and then I think, I also learnt what I'm good at. I think I know and understand how to sell.
I understand probably better now how to prioritise the value of support network both for me personally and professionally, internally and externally. So, pulling in good and clever talent. What you spend your money on and what gives you stress.
As time has gone by, and with my current business it's bigger than anything I've built before already. But when you've been through stresses on a small scale, I think it probably makes it easier not to sweat the small stuff at a bigger scale.
Sometimes you hear the Williams sisters talking about how they've hit a million tennis balls and they hit that million tennis balls just for that one time when they were on the court, the shot drops at exactly that position and they've hit it a million times. Exactly that position in practise and therefore they were ready.
And I kind of feel like everything you do when you're starting a business, even when you're at Uni and have a little side project, whatever you're doing, that just teaches you practical skills and you don't really realise it, but then you put it into practise or I feel like I'm putting it all into practise right now.
Alan Cowley: What advice would you give to an entrepreneur that's starting quite late, that hasn't had the drive to take the plunge as much as you over the years?
Emma Sinclair: It may not be, they don't have the drive, it just wasn't the moment. But I feel wiser and better able to navigate business the older I get, because life experience teaches you to handle life. And business is a series of highs and lows, and challenges and fuck ups, and great days and dark days, dark weeks.
And so really your life teaches you to navigate all of that, and the older you are, often the wiser you are. If you learnt from your mistakes, your network is better both professionally and personally. You know who to call. If I think about some of my challenges in the early days, I had no idea who to call to ask for help, didn't know anybody. Because my first job was McDonald's and then I went to Uni. Who did I know at that point?
So, I think perhaps at the younger end people have more energy and can work 22 hours a day. But as you mature and get a little bit older, I think it's a plus. You are less likely to make stupid mistakes. It doesn't mean you won't make other stupid mistakes, but in theory, some of the hard stuff when you're younger, is easier when you've got life wisdom.
Alan Cowley: Yeah. Was your goal to take a company public because of the upbringing that you're talking about, stocks and shares and everything?
Emma Sinclair: No. At the time when I started my first business, I just needed some cash. I didn't really know anyone. I didn't know how to raise money. But as far as I was concerned, stock market was an utterly normal thing, and liquidity was a very covetable thing.
So, I didn't realise it wasn't something people did. That they raised money and made a little cash sale to go buy stuff? It just did not occur to me that it would be an unusual way to raise money. On the contrary, it just seemed like, well, surely if you're asking people that don't really know you that well for money to do something, giving them liquidity is a bonus.
So, you know, it sounds clever now, but honestly at the time it just seemed like the most obvious thing to do. I mean if I think about now, not the audacity but maybe the naivety of being like, well I’ll just to get 3 million together and that's going to be a thing. I mean, I can't believe I did that.
But I think as much like everything, sometimes if you're doing something big, if you thought about it properly in advance, you probably wouldn't have done it. But it was a stepping-stone. I learned how to raise money. I learned how to, knock on doors, which I learned from my father. You know, knock and ask.
It's also interesting, because subsequently, when I think about stock markets or I apply that thinking to my business now, it's just not something that's very coveted by people. People don't talk about the stock market as an early exit, a route to access money that often. And especially in the kind of tech world I inhabit of start-ups and scale ups, it just isn't a thing.
But I still retain a deep love of stock markets and who knows, I might get there again with a much bigger business.
Alan Cowley: So, let's talk about the bigger business. The one now, Enterprise Alumni. What is it? What do you do? Why did you want to set it up?
Emma Sinclair: So, the business currently is the market leading LMI software provider. We power the corporate Alumni networks of some of the world's largest companies. Over the space of the last few years, Alumni has become a thing. It used to be the case that it was, thanks and bye when you left a company. And that was that.
What's become apparent over the last few years, is Alumni are this huge source of talent, source of business development, sentiment, evangelists, ambassadors, and they're just being completely overlooked. So, we've technologised that and brought that into the 21st century. And great timing, now that it seems to be on people's roadmaps and agendas.
And as a result, we're growing very quickly. And sentiment is changing also about how people work. It used to be you'd have one job for life, then maybe our parents had seven jobs, and really our children will probably have seven jobs all at the same time. So, finding, locating the right talent for the right job at the right time is quite hard. And really this huge pool of people who are a natural source for that.
When they leave you, they become customers if you're a consumer company. And I love it because in many ways I naturally gravitate towards the concept of building communities and relying on them and leveraging them for, on one hand, competitive advantage, and on the other hand, support, guidance, and all the wonderful things that come with that. I can't say that we built Enterprise Alumni because I have a natural inclination towards communities, but in some ways I have found that the way that I live my life and the way both professional and personal just aligns with, I guess, some of my life goals. I mean, I'm also vegan. I've been vegan for 20 years. That aligns with the way I feel about the planet. So yeah, Alumni, it's a thing.
Alan Cowley: It is.
Emma Sinclair: So is veganism these days, it turns out
Alan Cowley: With Alumni, is this only for one industry? Is this set for corporates, or is this for start-ups, is this everyone? Where do you want it to be? Where do you want it to grow into?
Emma Sinclair: We power alumni networks for very large enterprises, so our customers are like P&G, Nestle, HSBC, huge corporates. Then in the medium space, law firms, service and advisory firms, M&A houses. So, it's for large companies that have more than a couple of thousand people, generally globally dispersed, but at some point, everybody will have an alumni community. It's just, if you're servicing a large corporate, the software that's required to do that is different to pressing a button and getting a mini alumni network for a company that has 300 people. So, we currently service larger corporates, larger entities, organisations, that sort of thing
Alan Cowley: Is there scope for it to be in the start-up ecosystem at some point?
Emma Sinclair: Who knows? It depends who we'd be servicing. The start-up ecosystem by its very nature is kind of small and fragmented, so I'm not sure how small and how fragmented a business would want an alumni network that could do the intelligent, clever things that ours do. But, ultimately, you never know, and of course, small start-ups become large scale-ups, so definitely, when they're bigger and need to hire, need to find people.
When you've got a small start-up with seven people, you know where everybody is. If two people leave, you know you can keep track of them. If you're a large corporate with 25,000 people, 250,000 people in your workforce, identifying, keeping track of, and staying in touch with people is absolutely, impossible manually. You need a platform to do that. So that's where we fit in. I suspect at the smaller end of the market start-ups need angel investment and other essential things as opposed to an alumni network.
Alan Cowley: How do you feel about sole founders?
Emma Sinclair: That's a very philosophical question. In what way? As in, is it a good thing, bad thing, or ...
Alan Cowley: I heard from a director at Morgan Stanley last week about founders' fatigue, and that's something that we hear quite a lot about, mental health. We're talking on the podcast about start-ups here, and something that comes up quite often with entrepreneurs is this issue where you're a solo founder and it really hits you quite hard. I've just noticed at a few of yours, you've been a co-founder each time, so I was just wondering what your view on it was.
Emma Sinclair: Well, there's no one size fits all, is my view. There's no prescription for winning, so I can only comment on my own ecosystem. My current co-founder in Enterprise Alumni is my brother. He has spent his entire adult life in the U.S., so is based and runs our office in California, and he is magnificent.
In some ways we're massively similar, and in other ways we're massively different, which makes us a really good team. There are things he can do that I can't do, and things that I can do that he can't do. I really value having him as my co-founder because he excels in the areas that are not mine, and I suspect he will probably say he's pleased that I can deal with the things that aren't his priority, necessarily.
Life is easier when you have people around you that can lift you, help you, support you, and it's very hard to be all things at one time. It must be very hard to fundraise, and be head of product, and be head of sales, and clean the kitchen, and be in charge, of admin, and do the blogs, and do the legal paperwork, and the housekeeping.
It's very challenging, so I'm lucky that I've got a co-founder that I can rely on, and probably, being siblings, it means that there's even an extra layer of reliance and trust because it's just not weird for us to speak at any time of the day because we're related. You can imagine my family dinners though, when we're all in business or interested in each other's business, it's just one massive boardroom table, essentially.
Alan Cowley: I guess you're very, very open with each other compared to maybe some founders.
Emma Sinclair: Yeah, we've got a few commonalities, and there are other sibling teams and they don't, they have a different dynamic, but we share a common love, which is, A, our family and, B, our business, so that tie is quite dramatic. The other thing is, I don't know how co-founders fight, but of course we fight. We're siblings. All siblings fight, as far as I know. But, of course, we still love each other in the morning.
Alan Cowley: Yeah. Let's move on to UNICEF. You're an advisor for UNICEF. How long have you been in that role and why? Why UNICEF and why be an advisor?
Emma Sinclair: There are a couple of philanthropic things I'm involved in. UNICEF is probably my largest scale of project. Quite a few years ago now, I was approached by UNICEF, who were doing a project at the time with Barclays. I think they'd been given about 10 million pounds and it was to teach entrepreneurial skills to people in hard to reach places.
I think the genesis of that project was, unemployment is over 50% in a number of the countries that they selected to start the programme off in, so it wasn't odds are you won't find a job, it's that almost certainly when you grow up and you leave school, you won't find a job, so really, your only way to make money is to start something yourself, and so learn some key skills.
I remember, before I did my first field trip, I remember saying, why me? Because at that point, I was just starting on my journey. I'm like, why not someone extremely famous, with a [inaudible 00:16:27] billion dollars and a variety of other accolades? But at that time, I had started writing a newspaper column, and I think one of the things that attracted them was I was an entrepreneur, and equally, I was able to tell my own story as opposed to do interviews.
I was able to write myself, speak and stand up myself, and tell my story because I was used to doing that all day long, and I think they wanted someone to do that, and I think they probably needed a genuine entrepreneur on a journey, in order to tell the story of these other genuine entrepreneurs on their journey.
My first trip for that project was to Zambia, and there were so many things I wasn't sure of before I went, but one of the things I remember thinking is, what is some chick from Central London, who's done a thing on the stock market, that's building a tech co, what on Earth am I going to have to offer anybody in a hard to reach place? Because, I don't know, we just live in such different worlds. The amazing thing that that reinforced, and I remember thinking after I'd met my third or fourth person, was we are all exactly, the same. Entrepreneurialism is a universal language.
I still have got a picture in my front hall, if you ever come over for tea, is me and Kenneth. I met Kenneth, who started off with I think it was $10 to buy seeds, and then he went from having one patch of tomatoes to three patches, to then having a collection of fruit and vegetables and a surplus that he was able to sell. He worked like 18 hours a day, and had to walk miles for water, and didn't have proper irrigation, and so many challenges.
I remember saying to him, "Now that you've got enough food for yourself and for your family, why are you working so hard?" And he said to me, "Because I want my children to have opportunities that I didn't have myself." Now, if you asked my dad, why did he work so hard? He will say to you, "I wanted my children to have the opportunities I never had." My Dad didn't go to university, a whole collection of stuff which I have been really, fortunate to have because he worked so hard.
When he said that, I was like, that's exactly what my dad would say. Just, everybody wants the best for their family, for their community. Well, there's always some bad eggs. So, it taught me that. I had an amazing time. I stuck with UNICEF for lots of reasons and one of them is scale, just they have this incredible scale, and I have a deep love of thinking big.
The most recent project I did was, I remember reading a couple of years ago that 50% of giving was going to be done online, and I think the charitable sector is a little bit behind some of the others in how they operate digitally. At the same time, I had been in Malawi, and was chatting to a few people, and they were talking about a problem they had getting medicine to this hard to reach community because there were no roads. I'm like, "Well, what about a drone? I mean, you just get a drone and deliver. Finished." They're like, "How are we supposed to buy a drone?" I remember thinking to myself, there are so many projects that we could solve with effectively a little crowdfund.
So, I launched and conceived their first kind of crowdfund of that nature, and that was focused on raising money for innovation labs. The first project we did was an innovation lab in Al-Azraq, which is the second-largest refugee camp in Jordan, which houses a lot of Syrian refugees, on the premise that a lot of the young people that are in refugee camps are going to be there far longer than they think and we think. It is a very devastating state, of affairs that some of these refugee camps will likely turn into towns and cities.
I was thinking to myself, when we need contractors, we'll take them from anywhere if they've got a skill. You have all these platforms that people use to recruit engineers, designers, people in other territories who you might not know and speak the same language of, but they can execute some work for you at significantly less than doing it onshore. So, what if you could teach some basic key tech skills, design skills, coding skills to young people who would then be employable wherever they were? So, we did that. It was arduous, but we raised enough to completely kit out an innovation lab.
I don't know what my next project will be, but I think it's really important to start things, and I'm not afraid to start things and think big, so I think what's happened subsequently is that there are other territories all over the place now popping up, doing crowdfunds to solve a problem of, we need to do this, we need to buy this, and I think that that is just a slightly different and new model way of funding, which perhaps gave other people the confidence to do the same thing, because I did it and got it off the ground.
Alan Cowley: So, was this through UNICEF, like a crowdfunding on UNICEF? Has that carried on? There's been other projects around the world?
Emma Sinclair: Yeah. The first one that came after my project was one in Australia. A young woman read what I was doing, she and some friends provided after school tutoring, and in return for the tutoring they were asking the parents or the kids to put something into their crowdfund to fund I think it was something like a similar sort of project.
So, people are identifying projects and effectively crowdfunding for them under the UNICEF banner, but at scale. So not like 20 quid or 50 quid, which is more like a sponsored thing, working with the local UNICEF office to identify an amount and need, and working towards that goal. Look, it's just one of so many ways that you can raise money for charity, but I like to get things started, so I got that started.
Alan Cowley: It gives a more personable way of giving money to charity, knowing exactly where that is going to, I guess, for some people.
Emma Sinclair: Yeah, that transparency, absolutely. The other thing is, when I thought about what I was doing, it made the business community feel a little bit closer to some of the projects, because you see hungry children on television, which is devastating. That resonates with everybody, but perhaps there's a type of audience that gives.
But perhaps I'm different in the UNICEF ecosystem. Maybe I could rally the tech community by doing this. Maybe I could rally the business community. I think it's also exposing work and projects to different groups of people who can see how this resonates, and perhaps that starts corporate relationships,
So new ideas from start-ups that might want to support. So, which is an additional new, slightly different way of doing things. My other love, if we're talking about UNICEF, my other love is for some of the refugee projects I support, but in the UK. I've had a series of refugees down the top floor of my house through a variety of organisations including Refugees at Home. There are a lot of people who arrive here who are not able to work until their paperwork is processed. It can take years and some of them are talented or alone or young or just find themselves with absolutely no support structure whatsoever.
And so many people have homes and resources and bedrooms that they can totally open and welcome to people. And that is something that I love my grandma telling me about, how when she grew up in east London, they would open their dinner table on a Friday night to anybody that needed to come and have food. It's just the community element of 21st century life is sometimes a little lacking. I also stayed very closely in touch with some of the people that have come to stay with me and see them with regularity. And I would encourage anybody to think about, if you have a spare bedroom or a big house, think about allowing somebody to come and stay for a short while and have a home and get a little firm footing. Once they start the next phase of their journey, probably quite alone and quite terrified in the UK.
Alan Cowley: Yeah, that's something that I doubt a huge amount of people will already know about you. But is there anything else, business world or charity work, that you haven't said already?
Emma Sinclair: You know, we all do things quietly to support other people. So, I am able and, really, happy to be able to do some of those things for families on an ad hoc basis. Sometimes I read about people and find them and track them down and see what I can't do. Because I'm busy, I have no time and I'm not particularly wealthy on the contrary, I'm super invested in my business. But I don't know, my parents always told me ... My parents are super involved in charities and so it's just something that I've been brought up that you should do. And I think to myself, my family came over from Eastern Europe and there must've been people that were kind and helpful to them and got them on their journey. I now know because I know so many refugees, but just how terrifying, shocking it is when you are separated from your family, especially at a young age.
I had one person that stayed with me who is from the Bidoon, who are a displaced people on the kind of fringes of Kuwait and many of them have no civil or social rights. So, they don't have an education, they can't hold a job. And he made it from a variety of scary methods onto British soil. And being a minor was eventually given five years residency as long, as he went to school and followed a list of laws and regulations and he didn't see his family for years. And then one day many of us saw the television images of people arriving from Turkey on boats and one day we, through a variety of unexpected circumstances, found out that his family had landed on Chios, which is one of the islands which has huge arrivals of refugees that come via Turkey to try and reach Europe.
So, I took Ahmed two weeks later to see his family in the camp in Chios and those things really provide immense perspective on your own life. I watched a kid reunite with his two older brothers and nephew who hadn't seen each other for years. I mean, that a 16 year, old should have to go through that and experience it, it was an incredibly emotional time and just reminds me to be grateful for some of the things I do have, which is a very close family. And we are all very lucky and we can all do something. Whatever it is, we can all do something nice and pay it forward. I'm very keen on the whole concept of we should all try and pay it forward every day.
Sorry. It sounds a bit high and mighty and well then, but just I do genuinely believe that, we really all can do small things and small things do make a difference.
Alan Cowley: I have got a very good friend that works on the boats down there and yeah, she tells me a lot about how horrible it is.
Emma Sinclair: It is. Also, you have kids, young men predominantly arriving that have nothing to do for hours and hours every single day. No wonder there are tensions. You arrive on an island. People think it's unfair that you're there. It's so complicated and it's just a real tragedy that people should have to leave their homes and as we all know, those are the innocent people in some of the horrible things that we read about.
Alan Cowley: I'm presuming the people that have come to your home, all they want to do is go back to their home?
Emma Sinclair: Well, a lot of people can't because of their politics. A lot of people have come here for a safer, better life. Some people that I have met didn't really want to come here because it's a cold, wet country. They came to on their own young, I understand it now. Putting your child in a situation where they have a long journey and may or may not reach a country, must be gut-wrenching for a parent. But the alternative, if your alternative is being in a refugee camp indefinitely or being in a country where you aren't allowed to work or go to school, I mean ultimately parents are hoping for a better life for their children.
People do talk with fondness. Some people, there's an athlete I know who is unable to return to his home country and he always talks about the beautiful country that was his and it's very, very difficult. But equally there's safety, sanctity and opportunity here that is amazing. I'm reading so much negativity in the press or critique of whatever it is, health structure. There's so many things wrong and difficult I know for so many people, but what we have here, what everybody has here, even the most basic rights that people have here, the most basic help that people can get here is just so staggeringly incredible compared to almost all of the places I have visited that are outside Western Europe. And I think sometimes we forget to be grateful for that. I understand there are so many struggles and that can raise so many questions, but there are safety nets here that people only dream of elsewhere in the world.
Alan Cowley: So, what does the future hold?
Emma Sinclair: Again, I could give you a different answer every day of the week, but what I hope is that I build a company that is substantial and has a massive impact and makes my shareholders who supported me be grateful that they did, provides me with financial stability and independence to be able to do other things that I want to do afterwards. I love working. I often say this, that the life I'm leading and the people I meet is already infinitesimally more interesting than I could ever have dreamed of and I'm only just really getting started.
So, I hope that we carry on with the trajectory we're showing. I hope the company continues to grow. We are expanding into new and different geographies and I set myself a goal along with my co-founder of building a business that scales. So, I hope that that comes, I mean there are days when I wonder what does that mean? I don't understand, why did I want to do this? I'd just like to go sleep. But generally, speaking, I love our journey. So hopefully Enterprise Alumni will be a household name.
Alan Cowley: What are the other things, is it more charity work, have you thought about it or is it focused just all on-
Emma Sinclair: Occasionally when I'm very tired I say to a friend of mine, hopefully one day I'll exit successfully and then I'm going to get up late, go to the gym, make a smoothie, watch daytime television. But I don't know, who knows, who knows how long the journey is going to be. I do know the first couple of checks I want to write to the first couple of organisations I'd like to support, and I can't wait to do that. There are people doing magnificent jobs everywhere that I've been tracking for years and I'd really like to help accelerate the amazing work that they do. And beyond that, I don't know what the future holds for this business, so I can't possibly predict what comes after that.
Alan Cowley: I can predict that daytime TV will not be on it.
Emma Sinclair: I don't know. Occasionally I watch Oprah and Ellen. I would love to do like an Oprah or Ellen TV show, but just talk to entrepreneurs all day. I love doing that. I've recently been doing quite a lot of queuing with other people, because apparently I'm safe hands and I understand the questions and I won't overstep the mark but I can still be naughty because I am an entrepreneur and have licence to do so. And who knew that I would be so happy and relaxed with a microphone. But I'm really, quite enjoying that. So, if you know Ellen, I'd quite like to do a little segment on her daytime show, if you can put a good word in for me.
Alan Cowley: Yeah, we'll get in contact with her.
Emma Sinclair: Please do.
Alan Cowley: Anyway, it's been fascinating to hear the different aspects of your life, insightful to hear your entrepreneurial journey, and it's just been an absolute pleasure. So, thank you very much.
Emma Sinclair: Thank you.
Peter Cowley: Thanks for listening to another Invested Investor podcast. You can subscribe to all future podcasts via our website investedinvestor.com or via a number, of podcast platforms online. Remember, you can order our book online and be sure to follow us on Twitter, LinkedIn, and Facebook to get the most up to date, interesting and insightful content from the Invested Investor.
